When Madison Avenue meets Silicon Valley

AURORA: As the head of multiple companies, how would you define yourself?

AMIN RAMMAL: Since 2007 I have been more of an entrepreneur, but entrepreneurship in a space I am familiar with – which is marketing and technology. What we are trying to do here is to capture the cross-section between the two. Marketing is becoming more and more dependent on technology and vice versa. Looking at how things have evolved, I would say it’s like Madison Avenue meeting Silicon Valley. This is the approach I subscribe to; taking the creativity and insights from advertising and combining this with Silicon Valley’s drive and agility.

A: How do The Brand Crew, Firebolt63 and APR differentiate themselves in terms of their expertise and services?

AR: I started The Brand Crew in 2008 and we chose the name The Brand Crew because it implied a scope larger than just digital. However, over time our focus became more and more digital and we realised that there is a specialisation which comes with that. So although The Brand Crew still does some work in the traditional arena, our core is digital. Firebolt63 is in the advertising space, although I consider it more of an ideas company. We look at content and ideas, but advertising is obviously a major component, but we are not restricted to advertising. So if we look at both companies, they are different in the way they approach and provide their services. APR is focused on PR which is changing and becoming more strategic communications. We recently started another company called Spark which is in the sponsorship and retail marketing space. This is something we are still incubating. The idea is to offer a complete integrated communications platform, but with each company providing its own personality and specialisation. These opportunities were created as a result of finding the right partners.

A: Have you ever thought about consolidating these companies under a single group umbrella?

AR: We have toyed with the idea but at the moment I feel it is better to keep them as separate companies with their own identities.

A: What about Boloro?

AR: Boloro was an idea we conceived in 2007. It was a way of offering convenience in terms of payments; creating a network of point of sale terminals which would accept prepaid top ups and could be used for any kind of bill payment. Unfortunately, the timing was bad because in 2007 the market crashed; there was a lot of uncertainty and we were unable to raise the investment to get the project going. However, a couple of years later, Karim [Rammal] had the idea of converting this into a mobile version, and from there on it evolved into a mobile payment platform. The company is based in the US but the focus is on markets in this part of the world. We started a pilot in Afghanistan; we are functional in Kuwait and are looking at other Middle Eastern markets and hopefully Pakistan as well.

A: Now that 3G has finally happened, how exciting is this going to be for Pakistan and how will the next stages unfold?

AR: This is a very interesting time and a lot will depend on how fast consumers adopt the technology.

A: What time horizon do you foresee for Pakistan?

AR: Reasonably short because we have a lot of subscribers. If our population had been smaller it might have taken a bit longer, but given the size, I think the scale up will be faster. The other part will be how people use this technology. This is important in terms of the applications that will come into play and how critical they will be to our lives. One of the problems one has to deal with is inertia.

A: From whom?

AR: The consumer. If I am using something that is working, I am not necessarily going to try something new. And typically for mass adoption, you need a critical application that drives consumers to adopt it and break out of that inertia. This is why it will be important to see what type of applications are developed that can compel people to adopt them because they feel they are a necessity and not a choice. Yet another part of this is the cost structure and whether some of this can be subsidised. There are some interesting models coming up in this regard. For example, there is a company based out of Boston that is targeting this part of the world. Their pitch is if you are willing to answer a survey or like a Facebook page or do ‘something’, you will receive free data in exchange to cover the cost of filling out the survey or whatever you have been asked to do. It’s like the free Facebook that the telcos are offering now. In terms of adoption, it is going to be a cross between developing models that subsidise some of the cost and the types of applications that will compel users to need this application.

A: Who will develop those applications?

AR: Another market will open up in Pakistan. A lot of technology companies have been creating applications for other markets, although some have been developed for the local market. Now the opportunity is to create applications for the local market.

A: Recently quite a few apps have been developed for the local market.

AR: Yes, but the question is getting that critical mass. Right now we are creating apps for lower bandwidth. Moving forward, they will be creating applications for higher bandwidth. Then of course, another part of the issue is how cheap and accessible smartphones will further become.

"Another market will open up in Pakistan. A lot of technology companies have been creating applications for other markets… Now the opportunity is to create applications for the local market."

A: Will the telecoms go into the business of developing apps?

AR: I think it would be best for them to work with companies or individuals. Give people a platform to develop apps. Companies such as Google, Microsoft and Yahoo are encouraging people to develop apps.

A: And further entrepreneurship in Pakistan?

AR: Yes, and that is critical because it allows the entrepreneurial spirit to come into Pakistan. There are already a lot of incubators coming up. There are a lot of young people who are fairly entrepreneurial and the opportunity now is not only to create apps for the local market but for the global market as well.

A: What is normal practice in terms of ownership if and when a developer comes up with a new app when working for a company?

AR: It depends. In a lot of cases, if they are developing an app for a company, it belongs to the company. There are cases where they are developing their own apps but the company is facilitating them. Then there are other formats; for example the IP can be jointly owned. It is very important for people to own their IP in order to become entrepreneurs. This is a fundamental practice that needs to be put into place, because some of the young people may not necessarily know what it means to secure an IP, and if they are partnering with a company, it becomes complicated. When I moved back to Pakistan, I decided to set up partnerships rather than run a seth owned organisation and people thought I was naïve and coming in with a very western mindset. But it can work here. If you motivate people, they will find the inner passion that you need to drive an organisation. For young people it is not necessarily the monetary value that drives them; it is the ability to create something or solve a problem. For many developers their job is about problem solving. The last technology company I worked for in the US hired developers not based on whether they had any experience in developing, they hired them to see how good they were at problem solving. Some of them didn’t even have any coding experience but they were able to learn very fast. Their drive is very different and companies should not only facilitate that drive but give them the ability to be a part of what they are creating. This is the model that we are encouraging. It boils down to the culture of the company and why you are in the business in the first place.

A: Compared to other media, brands in Pakistan have traditionally been averse to significantly spending on digital. Is this still the case?

AR: It is changing, although digital is still a little misunderstood in Pakistan and the reason for this is because when it comes to advertising the focus is on media. You spend a lot in terms of media and then there are the production and creative costs. But even advertising in Pakistan is a very price driven market and the economics of it all are driving the industry down because there is too much focus on the execution rather than on insights and creativity. With digital, content accounts for a bigger chunk of the spend, although the numbers are still small. Research has shown that for digital the investment in content is more than it is for pure advertising, because content is what compels people to come again and again. So in terms of digital there may not be the same ad spend as there is for TV or other media, but there may be a shift towards more content-based platforms and this is where people are beginning to invest. But it all boils down to measurement. How do you measure the success of each media? Which medium is more effective? There are ways to do it through numbers, but at some point it is a very qualitative judgment, and that also drives the choice of investment people make.

"For young people it is not necessarily the monetary value that drives them; it is the ability to create something or solve a problem. For many developers their job is about problem solving… Their drive is very different and companies should not only facilitate that drive but give them the ability to be a part of what they are creating."

A: Isn’t the great thing about digital that everything is measurable?

AR: It is; the question is the level of measurement you want. A basic measurement will tell you that a million people visited your website or that 100,000 people downloaded your app. But what is the end result you are looking for? Utility driven apps are fairly measurable; however, when it comes to apps that are in the brand building mould, you need to define the measurement. Is it the fact that the user now has a better perception of the product, in which case it is back to qualitative measurement such as surveys. There is no doubt that with digital, there is more focus on ROI and if you are an e-commerce site you definitely know what is working and what is not, and this is one of the major differentiations between digital and TV. With digital you can test things and this is an opportunity Pakistan still has not exploited.

A: People working in technology companies are usually full of passion for the possibilities that digital can open up. Would you agree that until brands employ people who are equally passionate about digital on their teams, digital will continue to be misunderstood in Pakistan?

AR: If brands decide that digital is something they want to do, they have to create that capability within their organisation. Before brand activation took off, there wasn’t an activation person on the client side; the brand manager did everything. Today there is a space for brand activation managers. Even in the US, it was only when digital became significant enough that companies decided to create a space for an interactive manager who would liaise with the other functions and today digital has become even more mainstream and one of the capabilities required of a brand manager is an understanding of digital because they are investing as much, or close to, on digital as they are on traditional media. As digital becomes increasingly important in the overall mix, there will be a shift in the role people play on the client side. And yes, a reflection of how serious clients are about digital will be based on how they are organising themselves around this medium; how much are they willing to invest, not just in terms of money, but in their people’s time.

Amin Rammal was in conversation with Mariam Ali Baig. For feedback, email aurora@dawn.com